Ping ([info]zestyping) wrote,
@ 2004-10-01 12:24:00
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Current mood: drained

Gates at Zellerbach.

Bill Gates spoke in a conversation with Dean Newton at Zellerbach Hall today.

As people arrived for the event, we handed out about 700-800 flyers, which probably reached over half the audience. You can see the flyers at http://freewisdom.org/gates/.

Dean Newton's conversation with Bill Gates was consistently positive about Microsoft. The only negative reference that Newton made was to ask Bill what Microsoft has learned after ten years of dealing with litigation. Bill's answer can be summarized as "We were naive to think that we didn't need government lobbyists. Now we have them." During the conversation, Bill made a false statement about the GPL (claiming that it prevents you from selling software commercially). Bill also claimed credit for starting the PC software industry, which he presented as his biggest contribution.

During the question period, i got to ask a question. It was largely ineffective. I noted that Bill had described universities as very important sources of new innovators, and that recruiting from them was probably important to him. I then asked the audience for a show of hands of people who would have concerns working for a company that had been found guilty of illegal business practices, limited its customers' freedom to choose, and misled the public. Dean Newton cut me off; only three or four hands in the entire hall went up. Bill asked me to get to the question. I asked him if he felt it would be good for his recruiting efforts to improve those business practices. He said "Sure!" and that was all.

None of the other 5 or 6 questioners posed questions challenging Microsoft's ethics. Dean Newton also took several opportunities to congratulate Bill between questions.

After the talk, two Microsoft developers-turned-PR-people engaged in a conversation with some of us. One was a recently converted Microsoft-hater. Their intentions seemed sincere and they were well spoken. They admitted that personally they felt Microsoft had made a lot of mistakes and probably should have been more severely punished by the government. They said there was actually active internal controversy at Microsoft about how to behave as good citizens and manage IP fairly. They seemed genuinely interested in finding out how Microsoft could do better. I proposed that they make public commitments to fair use, to freedom of software choice, and to not abusing the patent system. If they really wanted to engage in a dialogue in good faith, then Bill Gates should issue public retractions of his false statements, such as his statement about the GPL today. I also suggested that, because of government's dependence on Microsoft, it was Microsoft's civic duty to open the Office file formats, to which one of them agreed. We talked for a long time, over an hour, while a CNET news crew took individuals aside for interviews.

I was glad they were there to talk, but i can't help remaining skeptical that expressing our opinions to them will have any long-term effect. They did admit that, even though many employees at Microsoft have concerns, Steve Ballmer remains firmly committed to "shareholder value" (read "profit") as his first priority.

I wish i had instead asked "Because of the government's near-total dependence on Microsoft software, doesn't Microsoft have a civic duty to open all of its file formats to the public?"

Or "You made a false statement about the GPL a moment ago when you claimed that it prevents you from selling commercial software. Would you care to make a public retraction of that statement?"

I'm completely exhausted. I'm also pretty disappointed at how things went and in my own poor performance.



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I bet this guy feels the same..
[info]ghosthacked
2004-10-01 08:51 pm UTC (link)
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=738&e=1&u=/ap/20041001/ap_on_hi_te/cybersecurity_chief

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[info]anemone
2004-10-01 09:37 pm UTC (link)
I don't think getting fliers to half the audience should count as poor performance.

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[info]azfactor
2004-10-01 10:00 pm UTC (link)
yeah, and that was a pretty punk move. they're an evil company.

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[info]fanlain
2004-10-01 11:08 pm UTC (link)
but if you hadn't been there to ask your question and the response was only this: "None of the other 5 or 6 questioners posed questions challenging Microsoft's ethics." do you think that would have been better? even if you think you could have been more stellar, your performance at least probably caused someone to think rather than to become the 5 or 6 +1 +2 +3 +4 etc. response (i'm beginning to think unless someone posits a counter discussion, people have a tendency to decline into bovine behavior)

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Your question was noticed.
(Anonymous)
2004-10-02 01:19 am UTC (link)
http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,118029,00.asp

"At Berkeley, he also faced some tough questions from students about the effect of the PC industry on the environment and on Microsoft's anticompetitive behavior." (Emphasis mine)

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[info]ephermata
2004-10-02 05:34 am UTC (link)
Even getting as far as you did with that question was impressive. Remember, Bill and the event organizers have a huge advantage in this forum over you. They will tolerate an appearance of dissent, but will never let it get "out of hand." So be less hard on yourself.

Also, with respect to the other questions -- if you'd asked the GPL false statement, he would have clarified his position in a way that would have been technically correct but changed nothing and avoided admitting the statement was false. For example, he might have said, "oh, well by commercial software I really mean closed source software and everyone should have understood that." The civic duty question would have gotten something similar like "we are committed to working with government" without addressing the question. Then if you tried to call him on it, the moderator would cut you off.

Insofar as there is a battle here, it's not going to be won by trying to show up Bill Gates. Besides, his opinion isn't what counts. It's the people who buy the software and build the software that count, and by giving out fliers at the event you reached a good portion of them.
(Incidentally, I disagree with some of your points, but we can talk about that later.)

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I'm glad you were there
[info]tosylate
2004-10-02 07:37 am UTC (link)
I was sitting in the audience thinking, "Hrm. I wonder where Ping is," and lo and behold, I heard your question. And I'm glad that someone had the guts to pierce through the sugar-coated conversation (in part due to the dean's brown-nosing and explicit references to joint university-corporate ventures).

I was somewhat shocked at the audience's response. Given that most of the audience were students from the College of Education, I would have thought they would be more aware of the issues of Microsoft's behavior as a corporation, but everyone seemed fairly obedient, including Mr. Microsoft Train Simulator. Maybe it's a reflection of the Berkeley student community's general apathy towards the news. Maybe it's because (and I sadly fall into this trap) students are too wrapped up in their own very demanding student world to do anything about reality.

But, to its credit, I hadn't realized how much research and development Microsoft *does* perform, especially with Dr. Cohen's work and Siggraph papers. And, as spectacularly as Microsoft Bob failed, the product has at least made a mark in user interface classes.

Anyways, it was good to hear you there. ... it was also good to see you the other day. :)

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Re: I'm glad you were there
[info]tosylate
2004-10-02 07:39 am UTC (link)
Whoops, I do want to clarify:

I was shocked at the audience's response to your question. Given that this is Berkeley, I thought they would champion and even encourage this sort of debate.

And the reason why I thought the dean was very ... ingratiating towards Bill was that maybe he'd like CoE to have a slice of his philanthropy. ;)

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[info]catamorphism
2004-10-02 06:26 pm UTC (link)
You made the Chron, too:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/10/02/BUGKM92KHU1.DTL


Gates took questions from the UC Berkeley students, who were deferential and friendly, apart from one who said that Microsoft's "illegal business practices" were a turnoff to potential recruits.

While Newton appeared perturbed by the questioner's lack of diplomacy, Gates took it in stride, answering with a simple "Sure," the question whether his company would benefit from improved business practices and prompting an appreciative round of laughter.


Not that you'd expect better journalism than that from the Chron, but, *sigh*...

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Ping, you're hard on yourself...
(Anonymous)
2004-10-02 07:58 pm UTC (link)
(this is Joe (http://pobox.com/~joehall/))

We got a lot more mentions that the few noted in your comments, Ping. And they mentioned Morgan, too... here's the skinny:

http://pobox.com/~joehall/nqb2/index.php?title=gates_at_zellerbach&more=1

I think we did good... not changing the world in one event but educating, providing resistance, etc.

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Bravo Ping!
[info]disrupsean
2004-10-02 10:40 pm UTC (link)
Ping, don't be so hard on yourself! You're a hero.

I'm sickened to see that, on the 40th anniversary of the free speech movement, the world's richest man came to Berkeley and was greeted by hundreds of "polite" and "deferential" students who bowed down to his money like $2 whores. All but a few. And of all the questions, only yours didn't go along with Bill's show. How tragic that this Dean Newton is such an unabashed Microsoft tool that he would cut off the single critical question. And it's sad to see that Berkeley no longer has a student body that questions authority.

Thanks for bucking that norm!

-Sean

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1. M$
[info]olego
2004-10-03 09:45 pm UTC (link)
Hey,

I think that you should not have asked the question you did. Of course I agree that Microsoft has crossed many lines and hence has a very laughable reputation; yes, but I'm referring to something else. I don't know about you, but most (if not all) of my friends know all that about Microsoft. Let's discuss the rest of the audience.

Suppose they knew that as well. Then they understand that Microsoft is a monopoly and that its business ethics are lacking, etc., etc. In this case what you said told them what they already know and was wasted effort.

Now suppose that they didn't know any of that. From a point of view of someone who's unaware, which is more likely: a change of mind of belief that you're a rebel? Applying Ockham's Razor reveals that the second is far more likely.

Now, had the talk with the PRs happened before this Q&A session (I'd stay for that if I didn't have a problem set due in 2 hours), then you could've asked about this internal tension that they described. But Bill's an entrepreneur and a businessman, not an ideologist. He's well aware of public opinion and he's very interested in keeping it as positive as he can. He's heard thousands of such assaults; I can't imagine that he's responded to any, and it was obvious that he wasn't going to respond to yours.

But, unfortunately, that's all that can happen at these pro-Microsoft publicity stunts.

And please don't misunderstand me. I applaud your bravery but criticise your methods. Like you said, you should rather have asked this: "Because of the government's near-total dependence on Microsoft software, doesn't Microsoft have a civic duty to open [almost] all of its file formats to the public?" (ASF? ^_^)

Now, on to part 2.

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Re: 1. M$
[info]chimerically
2004-10-04 02:35 am UTC (link)
I disagree with your conclusion. Even if nobody in the audience changed their opinions about Microsoft as a result of the statement, and even though Bill brushed it off as he's been trained to do, Ping's statement was mentioned in several news articles, showing the wider (news-reading) world that there *are* those - including very smart Berkeley CS grad students - who disagree with Microsoft's business practices. The fact that most news articles about the event mentioned the question is a great victory in my eyes.

It also gave Ping a chance to individually stand up for what he thinks is right, which is a great personal victory.

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[info]olego
2004-10-04 02:49 am UTC (link)
Ah yes, I did not anticipate that the news would cover this when I was analysing the event.

I applauded his bravery because I know that I would have difficulty standing up and saying something similar. But his last sentence sounds like he's not satisied with what happened. What say you, Ping?

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Re: 1. M$
[info]zestyping
2004-10-04 08:27 am UTC (link)
Thank you for your kind words of encouragement.

See below for how i think i should have done better.

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Re: 1. M$
[info]zestyping
2004-10-04 08:26 am UTC (link)
Well, as you know from my entry, i do think that i could have asked a better question. But, just so you understand, the intention of the question i chose was not to get the audience as a whole to change its mind about Microsoft. The flyers were intended to get them thinking about that. The reason i chose that question was to make Gates, Newton, the press, and everyone else realize that these issues cannot be swept under the rug. I decided this was necessary because the entire event up to that point was extremely deferential to Microsoft. There had been no mention at all of Microsoft's questionable behaviour.

In short, my intended message was not "Microsoft has committed unethical acts" but instead "the pretense of Microsoft's innocence must not stand." Dean Newton's interruption caught me off guard; unfortunately, i had not prepared myself to challenge his authority as well as Gates's. I should have continued calmly with words like "Dean Newton, i understand that my question makes you uncomfortable. I understand that one of the most powerful men in the world is sitting across the table from you, and of course you would like to treat him well. But i believe that it is the duty of a great public institution such as ours to uphold and promote the highest standards of ethics in all the people we deal with. So i would like to hear from Mr. Gates how he intends to promote the highest standards of ethics, so that our students can be confident when they choose to work for him."

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Re: 1. M$
[info]olego
2004-10-04 05:47 pm UTC (link)
Dude, had you said that, I would give you a standing ovation. I misunderstood your motives.

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Re: 1. M$
[info]olego
2004-10-04 05:58 pm UTC (link)
Oh, you should have prefaced that with this:

"Dean Newton, I will now establish a monopoly over this microphone. I understand that ..."

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2. GPL
[info]olego
2004-10-03 10:01 pm UTC (link)
I know only 2 things about GPL. (1) I read many people's complaints about it and (2) once something's GPL, it can never be inside a commercial software. It shouldn't affect Microsoft (so Bill was just wrong) 'cause M$ had to reinvent everything anyway. What other good/bad things about it can you tell me?

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Re: 2. GPL
[info]chimerically
2004-10-04 02:37 am UTC (link)
once something's GPL, it can never be inside a commercial software

That's completely wrong. How about Red Hat? Just because one has to release the source code doesn't mean one can't make money off of it.

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Re: 2. GPL
[info]olego
2004-10-04 02:41 am UTC (link)
But but...

"b) You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third parties under the terms of this License."

Please clarify.

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Re: 2. GPL
[info]zestyping
2004-10-04 08:05 am UTC (link)

The GPL says that derived works must be licensed also under the GPL, just as you quoted.

But to say that "once something's GPL, it can never be inside commercial software" is not the same thing. The GPL does not say anything forbidding commercial products.

This point is significant enough that i am repeating it in a separate journal entry. See the entry for further discussion.

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[info]olego
2004-10-04 05:45 pm UTC (link)
Ah, well it had me confused. Thanks.

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Groklaw'd
[info]cypherpunk95
2004-10-12 02:54 pm UTC (link)
You got Groklaw'd today:

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20041011220545598

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